Tuesday, November 01, 2005
A Quick Addendum - Iran
The President of Iran's remarks to an audience of approximately 4000 college students at a conference entitled "A world Without Zionism" are still entirely shocking and inappropriate. I would like to add a few notes however.
1. It is actually rather convenient that, as the President spoke, he stood at a podium with a banner hanging from it which read - written in English for our convenience - "A World Without Zionism." For a gathering of people whose common trait is hatred of the Jewish state and the American state, it is interesting that their banners were printed in English.
2. Also speaking at this conference were leaders of Hammas and Hesbola, terrorist organizations. He was in infamous company.
3. It is vital to note that President Ahmadinejad's comments did not end with Israel, nor did they end at rhetoric. President Ahmadinejad called for the destruction of Israel, but also the destruction of the United States. Furthermore, this is not a call to action for others, but rather, it was the President speaking his mind and articulating goals he beleives to be attainable on his watch. He stated bluntly, that he beleives the destruction of the US and Israel to be an attainable goal in the near future.
Whether or not you support or like Israel, these comments are ghastly reminders that the US is no more free from Iranian scorn than Israel. President Ahmadinejad's has recently attempted to convince the UN that recent Iranian purchaces of nuclear material are purely for energy and not weapons. In light of his comments, this is not a risk the US should take lightly. The President of Iran, a country rapidly aquiring nuclear technology, has pledged to attain the goal of destroying America. We need to stem Iranian attempts to develop nuclear weapons before it escalates to nuclear war.
I beleive that this is a more pressing matter than most people realize and until recently, it is not an issue with which I was familiar. These are facts that people must know.
Comments:
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The Iranian threat is absolutely preposterous. The meaningful facts to note involve the distinction between (a) threatening destruction and (b) actually destroying.
America and Israel - the two countries of focus - actually destroy. They destroy or attempt to destroy peoples and/or countries in their entirety.
Come on! Look at the actual destruction and the actual nuclear and conventional weapons arsenal not the threatened destruction and the projected nuclear weapons.
Think of how it looks from Iran with Israel armed to the teeth and America crushing and destroying Iraq - its neighbor. If I wanted to protect my country from reckless, arrogant not to mention illegal military attack I'd be thinking hard on going nuclear myself.
America and Israel - the two countries of focus - actually destroy. They destroy or attempt to destroy peoples and/or countries in their entirety.
Come on! Look at the actual destruction and the actual nuclear and conventional weapons arsenal not the threatened destruction and the projected nuclear weapons.
Think of how it looks from Iran with Israel armed to the teeth and America crushing and destroying Iraq - its neighbor. If I wanted to protect my country from reckless, arrogant not to mention illegal military attack I'd be thinking hard on going nuclear myself.
# posted by 
: 4:53 PM
: 4:53 PM
Neither Israel nor America have ever declared an intent to destroy a country or wipe it of the face of any map. They are responsible powers. Of course every country makes mistakes and every country trips over their neighbors feet, but Iran has pledged to destroy two countries. Not topple their regimes, not influence them for change - they have pledged to wipe out the entire populations of these countries. And they have done this in the midst of an active attempt to aquire nuclear weapons. If you dont think that is a credible and concerning threat, you are simply crazy.
Crazy you say? Hardly. Responsible powers you say? Crazy. I was hoping not to be categorized as insane so quickly but I suppose how else to quickly dismiss a basicly realistic understanding of matters.
Focus on actual destructive action versus threats of destruction. America and Israel - in the region - are the actual destroyers and/or dispossessors.
Rhetoric has seduced you. Beyond declarations are actions. Actions are what count. America didn't declare it would kill upwards of 100,000 Iraqi's. It just actually killed that many. This isn't making a mistake. This is illegal butchery by an irresponsible power. Responsible powers listen to international opinion and resolutions.
Iran is not a credible nor concerning threat. Iran would be blown to smithereens before a nuclear missle left Iranian airspace. Yet a nuclear capability might very well serve the deterent effect it has served for North Korea. It could very well prevent another "responsible" power from making another "mistake" at the expense of another entire country and its people.
However, none of this discounts the stupidity of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s comments. Irresponsible comments are one thing. Irresponsible actions are another thing entirely.
Don't you agree?
Focus on actual destructive action versus threats of destruction. America and Israel - in the region - are the actual destroyers and/or dispossessors.
Rhetoric has seduced you. Beyond declarations are actions. Actions are what count. America didn't declare it would kill upwards of 100,000 Iraqi's. It just actually killed that many. This isn't making a mistake. This is illegal butchery by an irresponsible power. Responsible powers listen to international opinion and resolutions.
Iran is not a credible nor concerning threat. Iran would be blown to smithereens before a nuclear missle left Iranian airspace. Yet a nuclear capability might very well serve the deterent effect it has served for North Korea. It could very well prevent another "responsible" power from making another "mistake" at the expense of another entire country and its people.
However, none of this discounts the stupidity of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s comments. Irresponsible comments are one thing. Irresponsible actions are another thing entirely.
Don't you agree?
# posted by : 6:28 PM
: 6:28 PM
While it is true that irresponsible threats are one thing and irresponsible actions another, and it is true that we seem to agree that the President of Irans comments were stupid if not disconcerting, I maintain that his threats are more credible than you think.
This is not a man who takes assertions lightely. If he gets nuclear weapons he will most likely try to use them. While it's true that, if he got nuclear weapons, America and Israel would try to destroy them before they left Iranian airspace, there are two problems. (a) we may not know if he actually has them. He has been very secretive about the whole process. (b) America and Israel both are trying to reduce the collateral dammage that would result from bombing Iran if thats what it came to. The easier thing to do would be to take this threat seriously and stop Iran from becoming nuclear.
Action and word may be two different things, but if you dont take threats like this seriously, one time we will be wrong, and it may cost us our country and our lives.
This is not a man who takes assertions lightely. If he gets nuclear weapons he will most likely try to use them. While it's true that, if he got nuclear weapons, America and Israel would try to destroy them before they left Iranian airspace, there are two problems. (a) we may not know if he actually has them. He has been very secretive about the whole process. (b) America and Israel both are trying to reduce the collateral dammage that would result from bombing Iran if thats what it came to. The easier thing to do would be to take this threat seriously and stop Iran from becoming nuclear.
Action and word may be two different things, but if you dont take threats like this seriously, one time we will be wrong, and it may cost us our country and our lives.
I think the basic difference we have is in how we regard this bit of rhetoric. I clearly sense your fear. You really believe it to be a threat and I'm sure many media will feed on that so as to generate the kind of support needed to justify American bombing of Iran. I think there is nothing at all to fear from Iran. Iran is not crazy despite how the West likes to make it out. It is not going to commit suicide. It understands power politics and it does have specific foreign policy objectives. They do not include destroying itself. After all, then their policy objectives would be put on hold indefinitely.
Incidentally Iran is a member of the NPT and has not violated a thing with respect to it. Both Israel (a nuclear power that won't admit it is) and the U.S. (a rampant proliferater finding yet new ways to make more nuclear weapons)disregards the NPT (again, it actually disregards it in action).
Iran is no threat but believing so is an important first step to sympathizing with military intervention. When Israel and the U.S. stop bombing and dispossessing instead of continuing to build their nuclear arsenals, I'll accept that Iran has no need for protection from same. This is my view. I think they have a right to nuclear weapons. It is not, however, what they are currently doing. They are currently developing the use of nuclear energy that is not capable of making bombs. At any rate, under the conditions that Iran has agreed to including inspections, it has every right to continue with a nuclear program under the full inspection regime of the Atomic Agency. And it has accepted this.
Any attempt to stop Iran from operating within its rights based on some putrid rhetoric is hypocrisy at its most disgusting given the actual bloodbath and race war going on in the Middle East by so called great proponents of peace.
Incidentally Iran is a member of the NPT and has not violated a thing with respect to it. Both Israel (a nuclear power that won't admit it is) and the U.S. (a rampant proliferater finding yet new ways to make more nuclear weapons)disregards the NPT (again, it actually disregards it in action).
Iran is no threat but believing so is an important first step to sympathizing with military intervention. When Israel and the U.S. stop bombing and dispossessing instead of continuing to build their nuclear arsenals, I'll accept that Iran has no need for protection from same. This is my view. I think they have a right to nuclear weapons. It is not, however, what they are currently doing. They are currently developing the use of nuclear energy that is not capable of making bombs. At any rate, under the conditions that Iran has agreed to including inspections, it has every right to continue with a nuclear program under the full inspection regime of the Atomic Agency. And it has accepted this.
Any attempt to stop Iran from operating within its rights based on some putrid rhetoric is hypocrisy at its most disgusting given the actual bloodbath and race war going on in the Middle East by so called great proponents of peace.
# posted by : 8:25 PM
: 8:25 PM
You appearantly think that Iran knows its power politics, but you seem to ignore that a) Iran is not at all afraid of getting bombed when it comes to doing what it feels is religiously right, and b)no one would ever simply wipe out the entire nation of Iran. The US may have made a mistake invading Iraq, but to think that either the US or Israel would blow Iran "to smithereens" is simply ridiculus.
Again, I will admit that the US and Israel, as well as other nuclear powers are in clear violation of non-proliferation, but such action is hardly new for our country. Incredibly often we see the US whip out the Monroe Doctrine when we feel like it, and shove it aside when we don't really care what's happening.
Regardless of how imminent you feel Iran's possession of nuclear arms may be, I find it hard to believe that you don't find it of any concern. Often countries have called for something to happen without any visible means of accomplishing the goal, but it gets done: reaching the moon, creating a US Air Force in WWII etc. The declaration of the obliteration of the US and Israel is definitely the first step toward accomplishing that goal.
Again, I will admit that the US and Israel, as well as other nuclear powers are in clear violation of non-proliferation, but such action is hardly new for our country. Incredibly often we see the US whip out the Monroe Doctrine when we feel like it, and shove it aside when we don't really care what's happening.
Regardless of how imminent you feel Iran's possession of nuclear arms may be, I find it hard to believe that you don't find it of any concern. Often countries have called for something to happen without any visible means of accomplishing the goal, but it gets done: reaching the moon, creating a US Air Force in WWII etc. The declaration of the obliteration of the US and Israel is definitely the first step toward accomplishing that goal.
# posted by : 5:35 PM
: 5:35 PM
Michael:
Actually there was considerable factual information provided in that post - feel free to read up on it sometime. Iran is actually on the right side of the law while America is the one pushing to make something false out of Iran's respecting the NPT.
JB:
Iran will not allow itself to get bombed for any reason save to defend its rights as a sovereign nation. It simply will not allow itself to be bullied into not having what it has a right to have - nuclear power in accordance with the NPT. As it should.
Of course, no one would blow Iran to smithereens - unless Iran sent nukes flying westward. Then they would. Iran understands this simple equation.
There is nothing to fear. It was Iranian style rhetoric. They, among others are disgusted with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Israel should be dealt with harshly. I don't mean in ways like wiping them out but enough is enough. The Israelis are literally wiping out a culture themselves. They are just doing it "quietly". A smart move to be sure if you want to destroy any possibility of a people becoming independent. But the real fears and problems lie there and in Iraq not with the words of the Iranian President.
Iran is literally surrounded by nuclear powers - Russia, Pakistan, India, Israel, China. America has troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. It has its navy coasting the waters south of Iran. And I'm supposed to believe we should all be shaking in fear about Iran! It is patently ridiculous.
Perhaps that is why American's support killing people "over there". Irrational fear. Iraq was all lies and the fearful electorate ate it up when they should have been protesting in the streets against such a naked power play. If you want to fear something, fear America's disregard for international law, its new found love of torture, its erosion of civil liberties. Then fear as it continues with the game plan it has had already for years of mounting an attack on Iran. (Go ahead read about it - try Scott Ritter, former U.N. weapons inspector for starters).
Actually there was considerable factual information provided in that post - feel free to read up on it sometime. Iran is actually on the right side of the law while America is the one pushing to make something false out of Iran's respecting the NPT.
JB:
Iran will not allow itself to get bombed for any reason save to defend its rights as a sovereign nation. It simply will not allow itself to be bullied into not having what it has a right to have - nuclear power in accordance with the NPT. As it should.
Of course, no one would blow Iran to smithereens - unless Iran sent nukes flying westward. Then they would. Iran understands this simple equation.
There is nothing to fear. It was Iranian style rhetoric. They, among others are disgusted with Israel's treatment of the Palestinians. Israel should be dealt with harshly. I don't mean in ways like wiping them out but enough is enough. The Israelis are literally wiping out a culture themselves. They are just doing it "quietly". A smart move to be sure if you want to destroy any possibility of a people becoming independent. But the real fears and problems lie there and in Iraq not with the words of the Iranian President.
Iran is literally surrounded by nuclear powers - Russia, Pakistan, India, Israel, China. America has troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. It has its navy coasting the waters south of Iran. And I'm supposed to believe we should all be shaking in fear about Iran! It is patently ridiculous.
Perhaps that is why American's support killing people "over there". Irrational fear. Iraq was all lies and the fearful electorate ate it up when they should have been protesting in the streets against such a naked power play. If you want to fear something, fear America's disregard for international law, its new found love of torture, its erosion of civil liberties. Then fear as it continues with the game plan it has had already for years of mounting an attack on Iran. (Go ahead read about it - try Scott Ritter, former U.N. weapons inspector for starters).
# posted by : 11:27 AM
: 11:27 AM
Here is your problem: you think that blame must lie on one or the other side. America has done many bad things recently. I agree. Israel has not always made the best choices. True. But this does not mean Iran is guilt-free.
They are a member nation of the UN and they called for the complete destruction of another nation while trying to get the means to do it (in violation of non-proliferation treaties) both of these actions are in violation of international law. Iran is breaking international law as if not more flagrantly than America.
That said, at least America and Israel arent calling for the complete destruction of anyone. Israel hasnt delt with the Palestinian situation well, but Israel is certainly not destroying a culture. They just disengaged from Gaza and the West Bank. They held out an olive branch. They are making an effort towards peace. Maybe some other countries in the area could learn from Israel.
Americas mistake do not vindicate Iran. What the President said was wrong and that needs to be admitted. The leaders of every Western nation and even the Palestinian Authority disagree with you Will. They all strongly denounced the President of Iran's remarks. Get up to speed.
They are a member nation of the UN and they called for the complete destruction of another nation while trying to get the means to do it (in violation of non-proliferation treaties) both of these actions are in violation of international law. Iran is breaking international law as if not more flagrantly than America.
That said, at least America and Israel arent calling for the complete destruction of anyone. Israel hasnt delt with the Palestinian situation well, but Israel is certainly not destroying a culture. They just disengaged from Gaza and the West Bank. They held out an olive branch. They are making an effort towards peace. Maybe some other countries in the area could learn from Israel.
Americas mistake do not vindicate Iran. What the President said was wrong and that needs to be admitted. The leaders of every Western nation and even the Palestinian Authority disagree with you Will. They all strongly denounced the President of Iran's remarks. Get up to speed.
Again, I feel I should add this as well. You say that "responsible powers listen to international opinion and resolutions."
Tell me that a nation should listen to international opinion when the UN passes resolutions regularly that only condemn actions of other countries and do nothing to fix anything. Take the situation in Africa, in the Sudan. I personally would like some action, by someone to stop genecide. But according to you, I should listen to the UN.
Tell me that a nation should listen to international opinion when the UN passes resolutions regularly that only condemn actions of other countries and do nothing to fix anything. Take the situation in Africa, in the Sudan. I personally would like some action, by someone to stop genecide. But according to you, I should listen to the UN.
# posted by : 4:40 PM
: 4:40 PM
Hello Michael:
I'm sure you've moved on but I have returned and wanted to weigh in again with a few assertions or opinions that, I admit, might require more research but are still based on stuff I've read. (No I didn't pull it out of my A**).
Iran is not guilt free. It is way up there in terms of human rights violations, for example. It instigates or supports terrorist activity against Israel it seems. It makes its women wear clothing from head to toe. And so on.
I do not think it is breaking international law, however, with respect to the nuclear issue. From what I've read it appears they are working within the requirements for a civilian nuclear capability. No, I am not naive. I just think they are playing it well and that America wants a security council resolution without having the required facts to make a case. So they are trying hard to do it politically but many are not buying into it.
I agree, Ahmadinejad is a radical. I still think the Iranian political machinery can handle him without incident. For example, he has had two of his choices for the oil ministry rejected by council. The political machinery in Iran are aware of his potential liability and I think they will handle him.
I think (and I've come full circle on this from being a basically ignorant pro-Israeli to a less ignorant pro-Palestinian)that Israel is destroying a culture. In the sense of reducing it to a state of eternal dependency by preventing them from ever having the resource base etc., needed to truly be an independent state. They have withdrawn settlers from Gaza but they are building more settlements in the West Bank (many from Gaza jus ended up moving to the West Bank) and their security wall goes into the occupied territories (i.e., land grab). They are annexing East Jerusalem and they are doing all this deliberately. Peace - if it comes - will mean subjugation not equality of nations. Show me otherwise and I'll consider it.
I accept the denunciation of Ahmadinejad's comments but, for whatever inexplicable reason, I am keenly focused on how this could be the perfect pretext for years long ambitions of invading and bombing Iran. This would be a disaster.
J.B.: I accept your point about the U.N. It does a lot of resolution making but it doesn't have any real power to enforce things. Take Israel's umpteen resolutions. All ignored. The U.N. can't make them comply. Only other nations can. In particular the U.S.A..
I'm sure you've moved on but I have returned and wanted to weigh in again with a few assertions or opinions that, I admit, might require more research but are still based on stuff I've read. (No I didn't pull it out of my A**).
Iran is not guilt free. It is way up there in terms of human rights violations, for example. It instigates or supports terrorist activity against Israel it seems. It makes its women wear clothing from head to toe. And so on.
I do not think it is breaking international law, however, with respect to the nuclear issue. From what I've read it appears they are working within the requirements for a civilian nuclear capability. No, I am not naive. I just think they are playing it well and that America wants a security council resolution without having the required facts to make a case. So they are trying hard to do it politically but many are not buying into it.
I agree, Ahmadinejad is a radical. I still think the Iranian political machinery can handle him without incident. For example, he has had two of his choices for the oil ministry rejected by council. The political machinery in Iran are aware of his potential liability and I think they will handle him.
I think (and I've come full circle on this from being a basically ignorant pro-Israeli to a less ignorant pro-Palestinian)that Israel is destroying a culture. In the sense of reducing it to a state of eternal dependency by preventing them from ever having the resource base etc., needed to truly be an independent state. They have withdrawn settlers from Gaza but they are building more settlements in the West Bank (many from Gaza jus ended up moving to the West Bank) and their security wall goes into the occupied territories (i.e., land grab). They are annexing East Jerusalem and they are doing all this deliberately. Peace - if it comes - will mean subjugation not equality of nations. Show me otherwise and I'll consider it.
I accept the denunciation of Ahmadinejad's comments but, for whatever inexplicable reason, I am keenly focused on how this could be the perfect pretext for years long ambitions of invading and bombing Iran. This would be a disaster.
J.B.: I accept your point about the U.N. It does a lot of resolution making but it doesn't have any real power to enforce things. Take Israel's umpteen resolutions. All ignored. The U.N. can't make them comply. Only other nations can. In particular the U.S.A..
# posted by : 2:07 PM
: 2:07 PM
I hope this is ok. I did a considerable amount of reading and then put together an article of sorts that is a kind of overview about Israel, Iran and the U.S. based on the readings. At the end, I draw a few conclusions.
(I wanted to trackback you but I don't see that I can.)
http://www.willtotruth.com/?p=147
Interpreting Ahmadinejad’s Anti-Zionist Comments
by Brad Stroud
On October 26th, Iranian President Ahmadinejad created an uproar when he made the following comments (among others) at a conference entitled “The World Without Zionism” ...
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(I wanted to trackback you but I don't see that I can.)
http://www.willtotruth.com/?p=147
Interpreting Ahmadinejad’s Anti-Zionist Comments
by Brad Stroud
On October 26th, Iranian President Ahmadinejad created an uproar when he made the following comments (among others) at a conference entitled “The World Without Zionism” ...
# posted by : 2:19 PM
: 2:19 PM << Home
